[MAV]

the_truth wrote:

I agree with Mav's mantra that you can't push the river when it comes to fans and who they like and who they hate. I was at a show in Cleveland and the heel earlier in the show had been given a plate of clams to eat by a face as a show of good faith. During the heel's entrance, he was selling that he wasn't feeling good. When he got to the ring he was doubled over. The face get's the mic and asks what's wrong. The heel said "After those 5 or 6 Cleveland Steamers you gave me, i fee like I have to poop fire! It made me sick! From that moment on, the fans loved him. he couldn't be a heel if he blocked out the sun (sorry... Simpson's movie is on my TV). You have to let the fans decide. From a booking perspective, it's easier b/c you're giving the fans what they want . From a promoter and worker perspective, giving the fans what they want = more asses in seat and more money. Sorry if this post is a little incoherent. My AC is sputtering like Mav after meeting Kevin Sorbo at a Hercules convention.

While I agree on letting the fans react how they want to and not getting burned up over it, that doesn’t mean I think wrestlers should just go out there and act in a way contrary to as a promoter how I would like to see a guy reacted to. Honestly...if they guy in question in Cleveland was supposed to be a heel on my show and instead decided to open with a comedy act that was OBVIOUSLY going to court the crowd's favor like that, I'd be pretty annoyed.

Sometimes a guy is just so charismatic he can't help but garner some cheers. Usually, a guy like that will have a small group or two of guys that just are REALLY into what that heel does and appreciate the guy for his performance. I get that out of one guy in particular on the Front Row Wrestling roster (Johnny Vegas). It sets up a weird dynamic sometimes where he's out there doing an awesome job and 90 percent of the crowd HATES him, but a small portion of the crowd just really dig him for the performance aspect of what he does. I think in that case it adds to his overall heat as a heel and something like that makes the crowd become very involved in the match.

There are also instances where I've seen guys that just can't be heels. Ric Flair has said that about Ricky Steamboat; called him the best he's ever worked with, but couldn't be a heel to save his live. My buddy Rip was like that to; he couldn't get people to hate him if he wiped his ass with a small child out of the crowd.

Those are all fine, and completely natural reactions...but I have seen several instances over the years of guys who are supposed to be heels do things just to get ANY reaction-good or bad, positive or negative. Guys who go out and babble shit with no purpose in mind or work their match in a way that makes the baby face look weak or ineffective because it makes them look cool- THAT is wrong, and that’s just working for ANY reaction. It's cheap, it's a shortcut and frankly it's a sign the wrestler in question is either/or/all selfish, immature or lacks the self esteem and/or patience to work on trying to direct crowd interaction. Guys like that turn what is supposed to be a wrestling match into a one way vehicle to get themselves over.

I'll let you in on a little industry secret...guys get their clocks cleaned for working like that more often than for getting overly stiff with the guy they're working with. It is more acceptable by "industry standards" to punch someone square in the head hard that it is to go out there and make yourself look great by making the other guy look awful. Your efforts are supposed to be aimed to go in a certain direction, and like I said before...that's the true art in pro wrestling.

You are right to a certain degree...it is easier to just let it happen like that. It also makes it near impossible to generate true, gut wrenching, people forget it's fake, white hot heat in matches. If you can't get to a level when the crowd absolutely DESPISES someone and absolutely LOVES the other guy. You ever hate someone at work, not because he wasn't good at his job, but because at every turn this mother fucker is just going out of his way to make you hate him? Everything he does makes you madder at the bastard...especially because the jerk thinks everything he's doing is completely justifyable and doesn't see any problem with anything he's doing, which of course makes you want to see him die even more. THAT'S a heel; no matter how good he is, you hate the prick on a personal level.

If a guy's out there heeling it up like he should and he's still getting a postive reaction, that's a recognition from the crowd of how good the guy is, and it's born out of respect for the perfomer. If he's out there just making the babyface look foolish to get himself over...he's just a dick

Mav


PS: Why in the bloody blue hell would I give one shit about Kevin Sorbo?

[enforcer]

I remember when TNA security was threatening to kick out fans who booed Jarret during their run in Nashville.

[The Butcher]

thje only people who care what fans think are the ones that suck.

[FlairFanatic]

Big Daddy Mac wrote:

On a different night at a different show my buddy and I wanted to try cheering for the bad guys and boo the good guys! We did and it caught on with the crowd for the last match. It was tag team match! The good guys got on the middle ropes and motioned the crowd to cheer and we all booed! The bad guys did the same thing and we all cheered. This went on for a few times and all four guys in the ring were shaking there heads like WTF is going on! Funny stuff! We never did it again though!

If your doing it just to be a dick, or just "to be different" thats pretty pathetic.

If your cheering someone or booing someone, it should be for a reason, not because you want to be "different" and "stand out".

[DavidDeacon]

If you think 95 degree indoor heat with no AC is enough to piss someone off, try mowing grass and digging graves for 8 hours in super-humid heat and direct sunlight! Until I got back to my nice air-conditioned home, I was angry enough to piss napalm and crap thunderclouds!

(I'm a municipal groundskeeper in the summer No gym to work at (or much of one work out in) up here)

Also there was a show up here once and the rest of the crowd would typically follow the boos/cheers of the first person to boo or cheer. There was only one moment of confusion where one guy came out and nobody had any idea how to react to him until his opponent came out to cheers.

[Who enjoys Family Circus?]

MAV wrote:

There are also instances where I've seen guys that just can't be heels. Ric Flair has said that about Ricky Steamboat; called him the best he's ever worked with, but couldn't be a heel to save his live. My buddy Rip was like that to; he couldn't get people to hate him if he wiped his ass with a small child out of the crowd.

I'd cheer that.

[DavidDeacon]

...


...


...Pervert

[ProWrestlingInstitute]

MAV wrote:

While I agree on letting the fans react how they want to and not getting burned up over it, that doesn’t mean I think wrestlers should just go out there and act in a way contrary to as a promoter how I would like to see a guy reacted to. Honestly...if they guy in question in Cleveland was supposed to be a heel on my show and instead decided to open with a comedy act that was OBVIOUSLY going to court the crowd's favor like that, I'd be pretty annoyed. Sometimes a guy is just so charismatic he can't help but garner some cheers. Usually, a guy like that will have a small group or two of guys that just are REALLY into what that heel does and appreciate the guy for his performance. I get that out of one guy in particular on the Front Row Wrestling roster (Johnny Vegas). It sets up a weird dynamic sometimes where he's out there doing an awesome job and 90 percent of the crowd HATES him, but a small portion of the crowd just really dig him for the performance aspect of what he does. I think in that case it adds to his overall heat as a heel and something like that makes the crowd become very involved in the match. If a guy's out there heeling it up like he should and he's still getting a postive reaction, that's a recognition from the crowd of how good the guy is, and it's born out of respect for the perfomer. If he's out there just making the babyface look foolish to get himself over...he's just a dick Mav

Some of the mixed reactions I've personally noticed could be attributed to questionable booking. Booking is a term that seems to be used loosely. I'm not so sure putting 2 guy into a match is booking.

For a one time show it's easy to use all the classic wrestling heel tactics to garner the desired reaction. It's more complicated over a period of time of keep the fans booing a heel or heels that are entertaining.

One thing I noticed is when you hear people talk about wrestling in it's "Golden Era" it is quite common for the workers to mention the booker. I'm not so sure it's like that anymore. A lot of shows seem to just be thrown together. Putting the perfect show together is more than just slapping faces against heels. It's about putting the right faces against the right heels, in the right spot on the show, with the right set of circumstances...

I personally have a hard time cheering clean-cut Joe Babyface when rugged when Big Bobby Heel walks out talking shit, taking names, and kicking ass.

[MAV]

ProWrestlingInstitute wrote:

MAV wrote: While I agree on letting the fans react how they want to and not getting burned up over it, that doesn’t mean I think wrestlers should just go out there and act in a way contrary to as a promoter how I would like to see a guy reacted to. Honestly...if they guy in question in Cleveland was supposed to be a heel on my show and instead decided to open with a comedy act that was OBVIOUSLY going to court the crowd's favor like that, I'd be pretty annoyed. Sometimes a guy is just so charismatic he can't help but garner some cheers. Usually, a guy like that will have a small group or two of guys that just are REALLY into what that heel does and appreciate the guy for his performance. I get that out of one guy in particular on the Front Row Wrestling roster (Johnny Vegas). It sets up a weird dynamic sometimes where he's out there doing an awesome job and 90 percent of the crowd HATES him, but a small portion of the crowd just really dig him for the performance aspect of what he does. I think in that case it adds to his overall heat as a heel and something like that makes the crowd become very involved in the match. If a guy's out there heeling it up like he should and he's still getting a postive reaction, that's a recognition from the crowd of how good the guy is, and it's born out of respect for the perfomer. If he's out there just making the babyface look foolish to get himself over...he's just a dick Mav Some of the mixed reactions I've personally noticed could be attributed to questionable booking. Booking is a term that seems to be used loosely. I'm not so sure putting 2 guy into a match is booking. For a one time show it's easy to use all the classic wrestling heel tactics to garner the desired reaction. It's more complicated over a period of time of keep the fans booing a heel or heels that are entertaining. One thing I noticed is when you hear people talk about wrestling in it's "Golden Era" it is quite common for the workers to mention the booker. I'm not so sure it's like that anymore. A lot of shows seem to just be thrown together. Putting the perfect show together is more than just slapping faces against heels. It's about putting the right faces against the right heels, in the right spot on the show, with the right set of circumstances... I personally have a hard time cheering clean-cut Joe Babyface when rugged when Big Bobby Heel walks out talking shit, taking names, and kicking ass.

Neither of my kids are vicious or mean. In fact, two more compassionate kids you will never find. The boy in particular, I've watched him adopt less able ball players, and try with much patience how to improve (often when his coaches have given up). I've also watched him pay attention and play with his younger, much weaker and developmentally retarded cousin (not a rant or an insult; the poor kid has tons of legitimate medical problems) for HOURS. When it comes to things like that…he could teach the old man several lessons.

Those two qualities have nothing to do with being tough. In fact...more often than not vicious and/or mean kids and adults are genuine pussies and making up for poor self esteem.

The problem with most "Big Bobby Heels" is that either they've never been taught or have no desire to...well, make an ass of themselves out there sometimes.

Being an ass kicker is irrelevant. Primarily, no matter how tough and/or brutal his outer appearance may be, you really can't be a true heel if you are unwilling to let the babyface to go "one up" on you. Talk, act and even for the most part perform a good game...that's fine. Never put yourself in a postion where you look weak, or have a weakness that can be exploited, and your not a heel. Of course no one wants to boo someone who goes out and says he's going to destroy everyone in his patch and does it. We all love someone who can back up his mouth. Give 'em someone who talks big but somewhere in the match starts getting HIS ass kicked, effectively showing everybody what an overconfident fool this guy may be-NOW you have a heel.

To me...it's why guys like the Undertaker, The Road Warriors and even Bruiser Brody have/had FAR more impact as babyfaces. Undertaker's gimmick doesn't lend towards looking weak except in the rarest of circumstances. The Road Warriors walked into Georgia knowing 4 moves between them, but Ole Anderson went out there and had them demolish old standards like Mr. Wrestling I and II like they were nobodies...of course people cheered that. Bruiser Brody, in a city used to clean cut, master wrestling NWA champions like Jack Brisco and Dory Funk, was perhaps St. Louis's top babyface and sold out the Kiel and/or the Checkerdome any time he was on top of the card.

It's also why guys like Shawn Michaels, Ric Flair, Nick Bockwinkle, Terry Funk, Ray Stevens & Curt Henning (among others) had such longevity, heat and drawing ability as heels. They talked up a huge game, but in nearly every match came the anticipated ass kicking of the loudmouth. Everyone loves to see some smug dick head get his ass kicked.

To me, that's not a deficiency in booking...that's a lack of understanding of the psychology of wrestling.


Mav